That is all wonderful and nice.  Just so some of you guys are aware, the Vietnam Veterans of America, via their national level refuses to support a resolution for a service medal for deployment to Cold War Europe.  I will not donate one nickel or one second of my time anymore for any cause for the VVof A.  They are arrogant and disrepectful for veterans deployed to Cold War Europe.  Even though their motto is;  "We are veterans helping vet's."  Keep this in mind.

rodevito, Ok, Please send me a confidential to what you know, on what, who, when, on the position you state the VVA has taken on a Europe medal. 

rodevito nailed it and even if this is how he feels { he is not alone } its offen how I have felt talking not just to the VVA,VFW or Legion select members have made remarks that cannot be dismissed and more than once I have had to wonder how the undercurent runs ?

Are Cold War Veterans {Veterans} in name only ?

Only DAV & AMVETS opened their membership to all veterans as major VSO's the rest have simply talked, of the three above two have reasons to restrict membership yet no reason to not support their fellow veterans and one has done both the Legion, as for the VVA {as well the rest} its up to them to explane their actions of talking from both sides of their mouth.

If its in print or not proves nothing its some of their membership running off making remarks it is their actions that speak for them that give reason for all veterans to think where the most stand on what type of service makes a veteran ?

PNV

I am glad you asked me for some evidence about the VVof A's refusal to support a resolution for a Europe Defense Service Medal(EDSM).  The following is what I attempted to have the VVA support and this is the answer I received;

In Jan of 2009, I sent a letter to Mr. John Miterko who is Chairman of Government Affairs of the VVA(National Level) to ask his support for a resolution or endorsement of a resolution asking the Congress to adopt a EDSM.  (I can send anyone a copy of the letter I wrote MR. Miterko if requested.)  The resolution was already prepared.  The following is the exact response I received from Mr. Miterko via an e-mail dated 2-13-2009;

Subj:  Re:  Hello, Greetings
Date:  2/13/2009 12:25:09 PM  Pacific Standard Time 
From: paladin@aol.com
To:     Dslivet@aol.com
CC:     mlittle@toast.net,rweidman@vva.org,bedelman@vva.org,tberger@vva.org,shodge@vva.org,
          pwelch@vva.org,sandie.wil@comcast.net

Mr. Devito:  first, thank you for your service.  Next, I appreciate your efforts for the creation of a service medal specific to the European theater during the Cold War.

The topic of a Cold War medal has been discussed by several Veteran Service Organizations, and the result when proposed to Congressional members has been no interest and no support on the part of Congress for the creation of a new medal.

Consensus is to work with the Reserve Officers Association to have, as I have mentioned previously, the American Defense Service Medal(an Existing medal) modified or altered by changing the dates of service, as has been done in the past, to recognize service during the Cold War.

ROA has taken the lead in this legislative effort, and has the support of the Vietnam Veterans of America.  Endorsing another Cold War Medal, in this case specific to the European theater, would work at cross purposes with our current course of action with ROA.

Based on our direction and support of the ROA initiative, the Vietnam Veterans of America will be unable to support or endorse your request for endorsement for a European Cold War Service Medal.

Respectfully,

John A Miterko
Chair, Government Affairs Committee

That is what I received from the VVA.

In March of 2009, I went to my local chapter of the VVA in Farmingville, NY(Long Island,NY).  I presented a resolution supporting a EDSM.  I showed the members charts, graphs, maps, statistics, about NATO Troops versus the Warsaw Pact Troops.  How the Iron Curtain was made by the Communist Forces and areas of probable attacks by them against us.  When I completed my presentation to the members, I was advised by the executive committee that "we will get back to you on this."  I thanked them and donated a twenty-five dollar check for them for allowing me to speak.  I waited for a response-never received anything from any of them.  In July of this year, I sent to the National President of the VVof A, Mr. John Rowan, a letter advising him of the e-mail response I received from Mr. Miterko.

I have not heard a single response  from anyone from the VVA.  It was a big waste of time, waste of effort, and a waste of money.  Going to their meeting to ask for an endorsement for a EDSM Resolution was a big farce.  That is why when my membership in the VVA expires I will not re-new it.  Nor will I do anything to help that organization.  I just let as many people know as possible not to donate any funds to the VVA.

If anyone would like to have me mail copies of any corresondence that I have had with the VVA, please let me know and I will be happy to do so.

Sincerely, 

Rob DeVito
Europe Defense Veterans of America
American Europe Defense Veterans of America 

Rob that was and is a damn good report as I said you nailed it and so far your the only one that I know who has shown proof via a e-mail of the foot dragging of some in the major VSO's as I said I feel there is an underground effort by some {Not} to support us, thats okay let them now lets find those who support us in these VSO's.

PNV

Rodevito.  What I see here is your unwillingness to accept an honest answer from VVA.  I thought they responded to you adequately and timely in responding to you.  So they gave you an answer you didn't expect  to hear.  I don't know if it was appropriate to donate 25 bucks for speaking on a subject of support.  I would have taken that donation as though you were trying to "buy" their support.  I'm surprised that they accepted it.

But having said this, I agree with the ESDM medal, and I support that cause, but I see no need to get angry at a group for disagreeing with it for one reason or the other.  They do have a valid point in support of the CWSM via ROA.   Move foward and find the support from other VSO's as PNV mentioned in the previous post.   Korea differs from Germany duty in that KOREAN WAR was never officially declared over.  It's a loop hole and that is why they get a KDSM medal whereas European defenders are not regarded as in the same category. 

And what do I know???  I've actually physically have been to both countries.  I was in Korea in Team Spirit 1989 with the Marines doing excercises (Civilian contractor) and I was BORN in Germany during the Cold War during the MISSLE CRISIS. (1962)  And the VFW still won't have me.   Life goes on.

(Message edited by LebanonGrenadaEraVet On 09/26/2009 07:56:27)

I was under the impression that the VVA was an organization of;"we are veterans helping veterans."  I guess that can be interpreted in one of several ways.  Maybe that would only apply to situations that is only good for the VVA, not necessarily "other groups " seeking support from other veteran service organizations to help be recognized for serving their country.  It is not the twenty-five dollars that I donated to them that annoys me.  It is their arrogance about the situation that annoys me.  The VVA has the support of the ROA for the American Defense Medal, not the Cold War Medal, as stated.  Perhaps being deployed on the Iron Curtain for three tours was a complete waste of time by myself and thousands of other men.  Maybe stopping the threat of a Communist invasion from North Korea would have been totally different in fighting in battle against a communist invasion from the Warsaw Pact.   Maybe communist troops in Korea were completly different from communist troops in Europe?  True that the war in Korea is not officially over yet.  We MUST maintain a strong deterrent there until the Korean situation is resolved.  I do not know if some of you guys are aware but when Germany surrendered to the Allies in '45, it was only surrender terms.  It was not until 1990, with the Final Peace Treaty with Germany was inacted by the two Germanies and the former Four Allied Powers.  That ended all allied control of Germany and Berlin.  Ending all our rights and responsibilities in Germany as a whole.  Giving Germany complete soverignity effective in 1991.  You can read the actual final treaty with Germany concluding the Second World War with Germany on Google by typing in;  The Final Peace Treaty with Germany, if you care to do so.
If people feel that they should be recognized for serving their country, they would try to seek support from veteran service groups.  If one does not have the support of veteran organizations, then that group will never get anywhere seeking recognition.  I have been out of the Army for thirty-six years now.  To this day, I still do not know why I even had to be deployed to the Iron Curtain area.  The Congress, the DoD, and our government does not have an answer as to why we had to be sent to Cold War Europe.

I even suggested to the VVA to change their slogan;"We are veterans helping vet's," to do away with that slogan via a resolution.  They do not practice what they preech.  I never got a response on that thought either.  So perhaps I sound bitter about this situation.  But that is how I feel and I am sure a lot of other men feel the same way.

Thank you,

Rob DeVito

I sense your frustration bro, and I feel kind of cruddy myself about not having recognition for a Cold War Medal.  I can't see why Congress voted for Merchant Marines that were not even Armed Forces to get veteran status and we Cold Warriors that actually served in the Armed Forces not get recognition of some sort.  It's out of whack.  When you consider the "Free for all" the WWII generation got for benefits after the war, it seems like we paid for it during the Cold War.  They gave veteran status to the WASP, or Womens AirForce Service Pilots and all they did was fly planes to Europe from the states.  Can you clarify please what you mean ROA backs a ADSM instead of CWSM? 

(Message edited by LebanonGrenadaEraVet On 09/26/2009 09:23:01)

Rob, posting this on the forum is not what I meant about a "confidential", Anyhoo, send Jerry and I both copies of this letter please. Stay positive.

I don't think the issue is the lack of support for a medal, I think it is the lack of will of the politicians to fight for the money to go with the numbers and side effects the medal creates. The KDSM, for instance is actually a very low total number in reality, compared to what we are asking for. Little VSO's will have the balls to fight for something that , in their eyes draws funds from other vet programs that strays outside of anything that doesn't effect their membership directly. That is the reality of it.  

I think that ROA also had a Resolution supporting the CWSM, [I suppose] in addition to the ADSM stuff. In any event, we cannot expect every Veterans organization to support every single issue of every other Veterans organization.

USMC_Kinda Guy

After doing some extensive research on both the VVA and ROA, it seems there is something different regarding support then what has been talked about here. First, lets correct the VVA mantra. It is "Never Again Will One Generation Of Veterans Abandon Another". Now, as to their action or lack of, I agree with USMC Kinda Guy that we can't expect support from everyone. If they don't believe in it, so be it. They can't even agree on who is worthy to have the VSM.

The ROA has had an existing resolution of support for a Cold War SERVICE Medal that was originally endorsed on June 12, 2004 and again reaffirmed on June 30, 2007.  There is no mention anywhere on their site of support for the re-institution of the ADSM with device to indicate Cold War Service.

The above is what was discovered by me on their web-sites but probably not definitive. Unless someone was willing to contact each for clarity, I'll assume what I read was correct.

Now the crux of the matter is respect. We want it, we've earned it. The other groups are not in our debt and owe us nothing. We have for the most part, been in this fight alone with little tangible support from those outside. I've said it in the past, several times that other VSO's have a limited amount of pull on Capitol Hill and must advance their own causes with the time and resources they have.

This is no place to keep belittling other VSO's for not conforming to our agenda. They, as we, have earned the right to do what they and their / our members want, unencumbered by outside influences.

I agree with the thought that we cold war vets, should not blame the congress declaired war time vets for not completly honering our service to there country. It is the american congress that is disrespecting our service, by not declaring the cold war  as war time. I feel all honeraby discharged veterans should be treated equally. We all signed papers, stateing we are prepared to die for our country. at any time. Just my feelings, right or wrong.
                                                                                                         Harold;

Perhaps that is true that veteran service groups can do pretty much what they want to do when they decide if they wish to support or reject other organizations seeking support or endorsements for recognition of a cause.  I guess the only thing that I can do is when I receive solicitations in the mail from groups like the VVA or the American Legion requesting funds to help other veterans causes, I can show my support for them by just placing their requests in my circular file.  They have their methods and I have mine.

Since I am on the subject of veteran service organizations rejecting resolutions, I thought I might as well post this other rejection I received from the NYS Dept. of the American Legion concerning their support for a resolution supporting the Europe Defense Service Medal.  I got this resolution passed unanimously on my local level of Suffolk County(long Island, NY) at the County wide commanders monthly meeting last winter.  The following is the first e-mail response I received from the NYS Dept of the American Legion;

Subj:  Resolution number 21 "European Defense Service Medal
Date:  8/7/2009  11:17:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From:  JB Sampson@catto.org
To:      Dslivet@aol.com
CC:     barbara@nylegion.org


Rob DeVito

This resolution submitted by Suffolk County was rejected in committee and the discussion as to why was had on the floor of the convention between myself and the County Commander.  Discussion within the committee that I can recall was in reference to the Cold War was not a declared war, the years for service varied between 1955 back to 1945 through 1991.  Shoot downs, border incidents and hostile fire resulted in the award of expeditionary medals and other awards, and identifying personnel who served when and where would be impossible to implement.
Please check with your County Commander or Department judge advocate for any further details.  Also, please keep in mind that anyone who served honorably during the period 2 September 1945 to 26 December 1991 is entitled to a "certificate of Recognition" for service during that period.

John B. Sampson
Chairman
Resolutions Committee
American Legion Department of State

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well gee, the Cold War was not a declared war.  Neither was Korea or Vietnam "declared wars."  I guess being deployed on the Iron Curtain does not qualify anyone for anything.  I also wonder what type of "certificate of Recognition" he is talking about.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I sent another e-mail to Mr. Sampson on 8/9/2009 stating that I was very surprised of his rejection of this simple resolution.  I explained why service members deployed to Cold War Europe should be recognized for serving their country.  I also gave him a little history as to how we first deployed their.

I received another e-mail response from Mr Sampson on Aug. 18, 2009 regarding support or endorsement for a Europe Defense Service Medal, as follows;

Subj:  Re:  Resolution No. 21 Europe Defense Service medal
Date: 8/18/2009 12:03:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: JBSampson@cattco.org
To:     Dslivet@aol.com
CC:    barbara@nylegion.org

Rob DeVito

The American Legion literally wrote the entire GI Bill after WWll which gave ALL veterans education benefits.  The American legion was the primary sponsor of the "New GI Bill" which has updated the education benefits for those who have served, ALL who have served.
Your current access to VA health care for ALL those who have served other than dishonorably happened because of the work of the American Legion.  That is health care for ALL veterans.  The American Legion has worked for All veterans not just those who have served in combat, wartime, or certain periods or places.  The American Legion is not in the business of telling Congress, or the Department of Defense, what medals to authorize for who or where they had to serve to earn them.  Your battle is not with the American Legion, it is with Congress.

John B. Sampson, Chairman
Resolution Committee
The American legion
Department of New York

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

Again, Mr. Sampson is dodging the issue.  I am not talking about education or health care.  If you were deployed along the Iron Curtain in 1958 or 1979 for example ,ou receive diddily- do,for serving your country in terms of benefits.  How many of you guys fell through the cracks?  If the American legion is not in the business of telling our government what medals to authorize, then why would they have a resolution asking the Congress to support the Cold War Victory Medal?  Europe Defense Service Medal? Cold War Victory medal?  What is the problem with the Legion stating "We support your resolution...period!  Why is this such a problem with them.  Perhaps the American legion should rescind their resolution for support of the CWVM?  A lot of men in the late 50's were deployed to Europe and returned from Europe on crowded troop ships.  They never received a single service award for their deployment to Cold War Europe.  I am sure a lot of you men reading this could care less and you might even agree with what this resolution committee chairman is stating while he is defending the state legions position on this topic.  Just my two cents worth.

Rob DeVito

Here's is your best bet.  I THINK.  Stick with the COLD WAR VETERANS here and like a real UNION, we bargain collectively for this medal.  That means, as a whole group, we put our efforts into gaining this medal, which will include ALL VETERANS of the time period.  1945-1991.  I would drop the EDSM medal ideology to the gainment of that CWSM or CWVM (Whatever it will be called).  I think once that gets achieved, the VFW will probably step in and grant overseas deployed guys from Europe membership based on the CWSM with overseas service.  Then you can flip your nose at the American Legion.  Just a thought. The VFW seems to have relaxed their resolution from before about medals only to overseas Cold Warriors, and the VFW has shown alot more interest than the American Legion in this department.  (By way of writing a book on it, not that I don't appreciate the American Legion's support in this matter too.)

And here is something too. I deployed off the North Carolina coast near Bermuda on board U.S. Navy ship into international waters.  I deserve some sea service ribbon.  I didn't get one because I was a reservist on my two week deal.  But I know I was out there with Russian subs and spy fishing trawlers.  You gave me an idea.  I'm gonna open up a BERMUDA TRIANGLE defense service medal organization for all sailors and marines that deployed inside the Bermuda Triangle during the Cold War engaged in cat and mouse games with the bear.

Brothers,

Please be reminded that this forum is seen by those that wish to learn more about The Cold War, as well as what we are trying to do. This forum is seen by different VSO's, as well as people not part of any VSO.

This forum which can be viewed by the public at large,  is not the place in which to smash, bash, thrash, or trash other VSO's.

Each of the VSO's have their own agendas. And we have Ours, which is to establish a Cold War Service Medal.


Smashing, Bashing, Thrashing, Trashing other VSO's hurts our cause. I think that it also might drive people away from wishing to aide us.

I can fully understand anger and the frustration, however this is not the place in which to vent such things.




Cannon Cocker

Great point about vso's.  They all have their limited windows to push through their agendas. I think they've all been pretty supportive of the CWSM and quite patient. I'm sure there is alot of resistence of this medal by alot of members everywhere. And to be able to endorse it continously year after year shows overall comittment.  The organizations are only as good as their members.  Just like in the military,  I think if one pursuits other types of recognition such as the EDSM and then others try for instance to get medals for embassy duties at various countries during the cold war, or if the nuke guys working the silos try for their own recognition, it may detract focus on this CWM drive when a Cold War Medal would cover all the above.  I think under the CWM umbrella would bring about other opportunites or recognition later.  (But that is just MY thought and I speak for myself.)  But for the record, I SUPPORT YOU and EDSM. Rodevito.  
About WAR PERIODS.  Or DECLARED OR UNDECLARED WARS.  I see your point and you are right.  Vietnam and Korea were not declared wars.  But in retrospect, the VA classifies them under "WAR PERIODS".  Just like WWII and WWI.  Lets be honest about something.  A war is a war and people get killed in these armed conflicts no matter what you call them.   I don't know if we can honestly shed a true comparison between the "Cold War" and what went down in Vietnam, Korea and guard duty at the FULDA GAP even though these were products of the cold war.
In my honest opinion, I think we deserve recognition for our TIME PERIOD of service under the Cold War for standing down and facing off with the Russians and defence of the world.  I don't think it should be treated as though we WON a war.  I think that part of it gets laughed at in congress.

Just to be very clear, we have not had one single declared war since December 8th, 1941 when the Congress Declared war on the Empire of Japan and extended that declaration to include Germany and Italy as of December 7th. Every military action we have undertaken, including today's Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom are undeclared. So was the first Gulf War, Dessert Storm. Nope, no declaration for Panama or Grenada either and yet they are all recognized by campaign or expeditionary medals.

On the subject of the NY State Department of the American Legion, as I understand resolutions, the only function any body or entity of the Legion should undertake is a formality, reviewing for proper writing of the resolution and making sure it conforms to the by-laws. I sent one up the chain and it made it all the way to the floor of the National Convention and that was for a National Day of Remembrance on May 1st. It was eventually defeated because of the May 1st date but it was never blocked by the 22nd District, 2nd Division or Department of Texas and it was the Department who carried it to National. Something is amiss in the Empire State.

Lastly and hopefully for the last time, I say we stand together for a Cold War medal, stop concerning ourselves with other VSOs and retain focus on our prescribed goals. If they are ever realized, other endeavours can take place. If anyone needs a fire lit under them, it should be the EDVA to keep trying again and again.

Did you guys read about the airplane they found off the coast of California missing since 1955?  I guess we can add this in the listing of missing fighters and pilots if it isn't already.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/09/29/california.missing.jet.found/index.html?eref=rss_latest

Regarding other vso's and wheter they support a CWSM, I thought I would post the following. It seems Mr. Sampsons response about not telling Congress about what medals to authorize is different than what was passed at the National Convention.

EIGHTY-NINTH NATIONAL CONVENTION

OF

THE AMERICAN LEGION

RENO, NEVADA

August 28, 29, 30, 2007

Resolution No. 80: Cold War Victory Medal

Origin: District of Columbia

Submitted by: Convention Committee on National Security

WHEREAS, The United States Armed Forces engaged the forces of International Communism continuously from the end of World War II until the disintegration of the former Soviet Union; and

WHEREAS, The United States, during this extended period, relied for its manpower source on a national service Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps made up of citizens performing their obligated duty to serve and defend the United States; and

WHEREAS, The defeat of the former Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact allies constituted the greatest success of American Armed Forces since the end of World War II; and

WHEREAS, Many American citizens served the nation in assigned duties without receiving tangible recognition for that service; now, therefore, be it

RESOLVED, By The American Legion in National Convention assembled in Reno, Nevada, on August 28, 29, 30, 2007, That The American Legion support legislation that would authorize and provide funding for the award of a Cold War Victory Medal to all armed forces members who served on extended active duty during the period 2 September 1945 through December 1991 thereby commemorating service in the Cold War to eliminate the threat of a determined enemy to overpower the freely elected democracies of the World.

I know that the priority on this ACWV site is to promote the Cold War Service Medal.  Not the Europe Defense Service Medal.  The EDSM is a different issue.  I am not here to intentionally bash anyone who may disagree about various topics.  I just wish to make some people aware that some veteran service organizations are not truly what they project themselves to be.  The Vietnam Vet's of America and the American Legion will send out mailings to just about anyone asking for donations to help;  "our returning veterans...our overseas veterans...families of veterans..former combat veterans". or as I have heard some people say; "the real veterans."   So, I guess stateside or overseas Cold War Veterans don't count for anything.  Just keep in mind when you get a letter in the mail from these two veteran service organizations asking you to donate money to help them with "their causes " they both refused to endorse a simple resolution just to support a Europe Defense Service Medal.  I did not ask any of them for donations.  I will not give them anything.

Let's remember that VVA members are Cold War veterans also.  Europe is a little outside their main focus.  I personally support a European Defense Medal as a corresponding award to the Korean Defense Medal.  During the Cold War, Europe was the primary concern.  Korea was a secondary theater.  But they organized and picked up congressional support.  They deserved their medal as the troops that manned the Iron Curtain deserve theirs.

rodevito we support you {EDVA} and again my friend don't waste your time selling to folks not buying focus on those you can sell your ideas to they are out there keep up the good fight and some day we shall get it done : )

PNV